Episode Notes:

On the first episode of the Russia Contingency, Michael Kofman reflects on his research trip to Ukraine on the 14-hour train ride from Kyiv to Poland. He is joined by Ryan Evans, the founder of War on the Rocks, the publisher of the Texas National Security Review, and the CEO of Metamorphic Media, and Konrad Muzyka, an independent defense analyst focused on Ukraine and Belarus.

The Russia Contingency is a bi-weekly podcast featuring in-depth analysis of Russia's military power and the war in Ukraine.

Episode Transcript:

Michael Kofman: This is the first episode of my new members-only podcast called The Russia Contingency on War On The Rocks. I am sitting right now in the train car with my good friend Ryan Evans, and my other good friend Konrad Muzyka, a fellow military analyst in the field. And we are on a train that's left Kyiv and we're heading back out on a long train ride to Poland as we speak.

Ryan Evans: Yeah, it's been an interesting trip. We've been in Ukraine. We were in there for about a week. And went all over the place. Konrad, where are all the places we went?

Konrad Muzyka: So we spent some time in Kyiv, then we went down south to see what the situation is in Odessa. We traveled across Kherson and Mykolaiv Oblast. And then through Kryvyi Rih. We went back to Kyiv. And we also did some traveling around Bucha, Irpin, and Hostomel.

Ryan Evans: Yeah, let's start with that. I think it's fair to say we got a nice little staff ride and learned some really interesting things. What did we learn, especially in Irpin and Bucha and around there, that made you revisit some things that you thought about the opening phase of the war? Or at least plugged some holes in terms of what we understood about what happened?

Michael Kofman: Sure. So I think the staff rides, primarily kind of Irpin, Bucha, and Hostomel, to me in some ways it validated what I thought before about the opening of this war. I always felt that the first five days were really, or maybe the first week or so, was really the decisive initial period of this war where the Russian operation attempted regime change, to get into Kyiv, failed. And the question was how it failed. I always thought that this wasn't over determined at all. That this was, as much as I've used the word, very contingent, very much dependent on individual actions of volunteers, of people making choices to stay, of people getting orders to retreat and either refusing them or being engaged. And a lot of things coming together in an interesting way. History often works this way. I think what we learned was that much of the initial battle was actually fought by volunteers without much in the way of reinforcement.

Ryan Evans: So it was mostly civilians but also veterans with maybe some support from minor elements of the Ukrainian military, but really mostly on their own.

Michael Kofman:

Many of these volunteers were veterans. For many folks here in Ukraine it's very clear that this war doesn't start on February 22nd. It starts in 2014. Many of them who volunteered and who fought early on had fought before in 2014 and 2015. And it was a set of networks, horizontal networks, the people who showed up to the fight, some were prepared, some got access to weapons early on. And to be frank, it was very chaotic.

The truth is that Kyiv was not well-defended. The defense was not well-organized. It's very clear when listening to their stories that things came together much better later on. But at the very beginning, the Russian plan was to try to catch Ukraine cold. And many of the regular army units were not positioned to defend the capital. And there was a lot of volunteers and a lot of civilians who showed up, and prior veterans, who fought hard to try to defend it. Some plans did come together such as raising the water level in the reservoir and flooding the rivers and blowing the bridges to block the Russian advance.

But there was a tremendous amount of chaos and friendly fire in those early days too. A lot of people just using their networks to try to coordinate the defense. And maybe, I'm not really sure, not fully sure of where the lines were. War is chaotic. Situational awareness.

Ryan Evans: They were talking about how things moved back and forth a lot. Quite a lot.

Michael Kofman: Yeah. It was...

Ryan Evans: Really down these avenues, these main streets.

Michael Kofman: It was a dynamic situation. The fighters themselves were just as worried about their own forces behind them as they were about the Russian airborne or the Russian naval infantry ahead of them. Ukrainian troops thought that they had already lost Irpin. There were fighters in Irpin who were holding more than half of the town. It was a situation where, in the early days, it wasn't clear to allow the forces how to best align, support communication, who held what. It was very dynamic. It was chaotic. And it's fascinating how it came together. This is of course still a very imperfect picture, but at least looking back now, I think we learned a lot more about that early days and the actual battle for Kyiv.

Konrad Muzyka: Yeah, it sort of, I think makes you really want to listen to the Russian stories about how they thought the initial days of the war played out from their side. Obviously this is something that at least currently we have no access to. But when I was listening to these stories, I was wondering how, actually, lucky Ukrainians were to be able to defend Kyiv to an extent that they did eventually that completely broke Russian advances on the city during these first few days.

And as someone who lives in Poland where there is obviously a lot of discussions or there were actually in the past a lot of discussions about a possible Russian attack on Poland or Baltic states. Regardless of how realistic they were, it just makes you wonder how much effort actually needs to be put into defense preparations and the preparations of civilian society to actually be able to sustain the initial wave of Russian attacks.

Michael Kofman: So one thing I learned a lot more about, which was one of the longer running mysteries for me, was what happened to the Russian stalling operation? Because in the run up to the war, folks like me assumed that Russia had a real ground game organized by the FSB and other agencies, that they were planning for something, some kind of coup, people to meet their forces. Because otherwise their plan seemed a little, it seemed a little bit nuts, seemed a little bit far fetched right?

And in conversation with volunteers, with other people who had fought in these battles, it's very clear that there was actually a Russian plan. There were collaborators, there were people who had moved to these towns, rented houses, had actually brought weapons and people who were escorting Russian forces. There were collaborators. There was a scheme that the Russian intelligence services had put together, that the Russian military depended on. It didn't come together, it failed, thankfully. But there was this other side of the operation that was kind of dark to us military analysts that we sort of assumed was there. We could sense it, but we couldn't really feel it or touch it in terms of what it was going to be.

Ryan Evans: A lot of those weapons caches where these pro-Russian collaborators had stored their supplies actually ended up being where some of the Ukrainian volunteers got some of their weaponry to resist Russian forces.

Konrad Muzyka: Yeah. And obviously looking forward, there are countries in Eastern Europe which have a quite sizeable Russian minority living in them. So it's a big problem I think for internal security services to track these populations and try to address this problem, which could have had a very big impact on the situation near Kyiv.

Ryan Evans: Could we walk through the chronology a little bit? Basically from what we learned, these volunteers, the citizen resistance, reinforced by veterans of course, or veterans as a part of it, with maybe some soft units kicking around, really were on their own for at least a week, is that right?

Michael Kofman: In many respects.

Ryan Evans: In Irpin and Bucha.

Michael Kofman: There were units backing them with artillery and what have you, but they were behind the river, behind Irpin. They were largely on their own, their coordination was poor with other forces. They weren't sure how to connect or coordinate with 72nd brigade. Northeast of this entire sector in Chernihiv, the first tank brigade apparently was initially told to retreat, but couldn't, it was engaged and it was holding out on its own.

Other units were pulling up reinforcement. Other brigades were making contact with the Russian force from eastern military district on the outer sort of built road by Makariv and who were essentially screening the Russian Airborne. But the early days were very chaotic and many of these fighters were trying to fight Russian forces. Yes, it's clear there were military intelligence and other units supporting them, but quite small and engaging in various forms of direct action. But in general, for the first week, they were largely on their own with mixed artillery support from the units that were in the capital.

Konrad Muzyka: We met the person who was involved in the ambush of the Russian forces near Brovary. And it was very interesting to actually to speak to him and to, again, hear his perspective. And he's only 22 years old and apparently managed to knock out a Russian T72. So as Mike just said, there were a lot of young people involved, there were a lot of volunteers and I share his opinion that the initial period of war on the Ukrainian side was very disorganized.

Michael Kofman: Yeah, I'll just add to that, that one of our drivers was also at the tank ambush at Brovary, not the famous one that people saw with a large tank, BTG, but the earlier one. And a couple of the folks, and in many ways our staff ride guy was a woman who had fought extensively in Irpin and was from Irpin herself. So we met a lot of individuals who spoke to us that were generally involved in these fights and participating individually. And many of whom are still in this war.

Ryan Evans: Everything we learned about this first phase of the war, these opening days of the war especially, reinforces something that we knew about Ukraine, but seeing it up close was different obviously.

Michael Kofman: One thing that I kind of observed, and I guess in many respects I may have known or thought this about Ukraine, but it is very much a ground-up effort. And it's a composite of horizontal lengths, right? It may seem from the outside as yes, Ukrainians are out-fighting the Russian military in a lot of aspects in this war. But look, war is chaotic and even a good military operation, when you look at, it's pretty ugly and pretty messy. That's why it's a joke when something's not run well, people often say this must be a military operation, facetiously. But the Ukrainian effort is very much a ground-up effort with a lot of people making connections.

Ryan Evans: In these opening days especially.

Michael Kofman: Absolutely.

Ryan Evans: Still to a certain extent, but especially in these opening days.

Michael Kofman: And it still is from what we saw. And we definitely got to see certain aspects of the battlefield. But it is very much an effort of individuals making connections, taking initiative, and it's far less vertically structured than it may appear. And it is a collective effort of individuals putting together their agency, their contacts, and their resources. It's very interesting. You do feel it much more as a civil society fight, perhaps more than anything else.

Ryan Evans: And this is, as someone else observed much earlier in the war, Putin's blind spot is civil society. Because this is really a societal war where all of Ukraine has mobilized, very little of Russia has mobilized in response.

Konrad Muzyka: Yeah, I think it's also important to mention that a lot of Russian speakers are actually mobilized. So something that Putin believed or we think he believed would be his strength, which would be the Russian speakers. Actually many of them turned their back on Russia and on Russia's support and they are now openly supporting Ukraine in its fight against Russia.

Ryan Evans: It's why he thought that he could just roll in to Kharkiv for example, which is a predominantly Russian-speaking city. But of course it turns out people don't like being bombed even when you speak the same language as them.

Konrad Muzyka: Yes. And the same goes for Mariupol, which was one of the most pro-Russian cities just before the war and the city was turned into rubble.

Ryan Evans: What were your impressions of Odessa?

Michael Kofman: When it comes to Odessa, first it was great to visit because I feel Odessa is just one of those very, very cultural spots of Ukraine. But my impression of Odessa was frankly, and this is going to sound a bit ridiculous, Odessa like the other cities we visited were dark. Because of electricity conservation because these strikes are affecting the Ukrainian power grid.

Ryan Evans: Yes. So the timing of our trip for those listening is we arrived a few days after these major Iranian swarm attacks and Russian missile attacks. It was actually very quiet while we were in Kyiv. There were a few air raid sirens but no strikes that we could discern at least.

Michael Kofman: So here's my view. People are out, they're living their lives. But the truth of it is, there's a curfew at 11:00 PM. Many people then have to close things down. They get home before then. It's very dark in a lot of cities. Some cities that we end up staying in were just completely lights out. And the situation was kind of bittersweet. I thought it was great going to Odessa and it was a stop over point where we had some discussions and meetings.

And we were out there and we could see across the Black Sea. We could see the row of cargo ships to pick up grain. We could see the lights on at a distance. You know, could see down the sea towards Sevastopol on the one hand. But you could also sense the impact of this war on Ukraine and the fact that this speed of attack, this kind of, I don't know, Blitz is a poor analogy because the Blitz is a particular thing that happened to Britain, but this to some extent an attempt of a Blitz by Russian forces. It does affect Ukrainian lives.

Konrad Muzyka: The one thing that really struck me was where the long queues of trucks with grain attempting to enter Odessa port. Kilometers and kilometers long queues with these trucks.

Ryan Evans: Yeah. Up to Mykolaiv and beyond Mykolaiv driving from Odessa. It was just tons of them and they were just waiting.

Konrad Muzyka: Yup.

Ryan Evans: Waiting to be told that they could keep driving and unload their cargo.

Konrad Muzyka: Yeah. And essentially when we were going into Odessa, what I noticed was also hundreds if not thousands of trucks traveling up north from Odessa, having left the grain in port. So definitely there is a massive effort on the Ukrainian side to fulfill its obligations to provide grain to the world.

Ryan Evans:  So you had a slightly personal moment in Mykolaiv, Mike.

Michael Kofman: I did. It was a very minor detour. It wasn't very much, in the southeastern district of Mykolaiv in the sort of shipbuilding district. And I asked kind of our group to stop by my grandfather's old house. And believe it or not, it was still standing. It was still there. And the original kind of green gate was around that I... It's been many years, I'll be honest, we left Ukraine a long time ago, that house was sold and the owners weren't there that I can see. At the house, nothing but stacks of bottles of water.

Ryan Evans: The windows were boarded up.

Michael Kofman: Yeah, the windows were boarded up, bottles of water everywhere. Because Mykolaiv gets bombarded on a daily basis, that city gets rocketed and struck by drones, probably more so than almost than any other city in Ukraine to be perfectly honest. And when we crossed the bridge to the eastern part of town, we knew we were definitely in the part of Mykolaiv that saw daily attacks during daytime. And many things were boarded up. The situation was, yeah, well I won't say it was overly dangerous but wasn't risk-free. Anyway, it was really good to see my grandfather's house. And what I would add to that conversation…

Ryan Evans: To be clear, we were going there anyway. We didn't go there to see Mike's grandfather's house, but it was actually very close to our stopover point in Mykolaiv.

Michael Kofman: Yeah, we did have a stopover at Mykolaiv to meet with colleagues there. So it was very much on the way. That said, for me, there were two aspects of it that were personal. It wasn't just seeing my grandfather's house, but the Ukrainians that were with us, that were kind of our escort and the folks sending us around, they themselves were actually really excited to take me there. In fact, someone I think might have been more excited than I was, to be honest, about the sentimental aspect of it. So I found that... Anyway, I found that very heartwarming.

Konrad Muzyka: As someone who reads about the frontline situation on a daily basis and reads about Mykolaiv and how it's bombed every single day, it was, I don't want to say it was interesting, but it was actually important to see how much damage is done to on Mykolaiv on a daily basis by Russian rockets and missiles which are fired into the city. And mind you, most of the rockets that are actually fired come from S300 SAM systems. So Russia essentially, what it does, it just fires missiles onto Mykolaiv.

Ryan Evans: Really just targeting directionally.

Konrad Muzyka: Yes.

Ryan Evans: Rather than…

Konrad Muzyka: So they don't know where the missile would land, they don't know what will happen with it. And in Mykolaiv, what really struck me is the level of destruction of civilian properties and residential areas, above all. Because there's actually very little military presence in the city as you can imagine. So most of the destruction, if not all of the destruction, is actually made to the residential areas and that's obviously horrible.

Ryan Evans: That's true. The Ukrainian forces are pushed forward now towards Kherson city. They're not hanging around in Mykolaiv, but yet Russia's still bombarding this city in the way that it wishes it could still do to Kyiv, if not for the Ukrainian Air Force and other countermeasures that Ukrainians seem to be adapting to very quickly.

Michael Kofman: Yep.

Konrad Muzyka: Yep, that's true. And that's the Russian way of war and I don't think that Russian approach will change in this war at all.

Ryan Evans: Something else I think we should discuss, we got down near the front a bit, and even though the south is this sort of rolling rural area, it was useful seeing in person. This is a very underdeveloped, economically speaking, part of Ukraine. A lot of poor villages that really only have a couple paved roads, a lot of dirt roads. It's very muddy terrain when it rains. Very difficult terrain for infantry especially, but also for vehicles. So it was interesting seeing that up close and this is where this sort of artillery slog and these offensives as Ukrainian forces advance towards Kherson are taking place.

Michael Kofman: My sense of it, what I got out of the trip, I think we're pretty reasonable in our approach of where we went. But what I saw, let's say near the front lines, was first just the challenge of navigating and the challenge of logistics and supply. The mix of vehicles, the composite of civilian or volunteer-purchased vehicles the Ukrainians were using. I saw a number of ours, we passed American MRAPs, we passed Humvees, we passed medevac vehicles, we passed a mix of Western equipment for sure in our travels. But we saw a lot of civilian gear, we saw a lot of older equipment being used and improvised. And we saw Ukrainians in a pretty serious fight, to be perfectly frank, in Kherson against dug-in Russian forces.

Ryan Evans: We were not in Kherson in the city, it should be said. Or anywhere near the city.

Michael Kofman: No.

Ryan Evans: Close enough to observe from afar.

Michael Kofman: No, in Kherson the region, not Kherson the city. As we transited, you could see that the weather had an effect. Roads were muddy, many roads were either potholed or blown out. It was very hard just to travel, just in the vehicle, let alone provide supplies. We saw the challenge of Ukrainian logistics and supporting units, just basically in rear areas. I think, to be perfectly frank, I think it's fair to say that despite the Russian logistical challenges, they clearly have enough artillery ammunition to sustain barrages and return fire.

Ryan Evans: On the Russian side, yeah.

Michael Kofman: Yeah, on the Russian side. The folks who think that disruption of the ground lines of communication against the Dnieper River have rendered the Russian military toothless, I can very confidently say that that is very much not the case. It is a hard fight in Kherson. I don't know, Konrad, if you want to add to that, you were there right next to me.

Konrad Muzyka: Yes. So there was talk on Twitter, and we both are very active on Twitter, about Russian inability to conduct counter battery strikes. And I can assure you firsthand that this is not the case. Although I think it needs to be stated that whereas a couple of months ago, a few months ago, Russia had a distinct advantage in artillery fires, I think now this is coming to a stage where there is some sort of parity or maybe even Ukraine enjoys some sort of superiority in artillery fires. We heard of a case when Ukrainian artillery was extremely active for one full day and engaged most of its Western supplied capabilities, and then Russian artillery went silent for two days. But nevertheless, the Russians did regain their strike capability and they did conduct additional strikes after that.

Ryan Evans: Yeah, it was interesting. I'd look out the window while we were driving around there one moment and I'd see some very old piece of kit. And then I'd look out the next moment and I'd see some Western supplied artillery and a Starlink terminal along the side of the road. It was interesting seeing this mix of stuff.

Michael Kofman: Yeah. I hate to use this term, it's a little steampunky in that you're passing things from the seventies and eighties along with things from 2022. What I would say is, look, here's my impression of the front. Ukrainian morale is high. Alright? You get the sense that...

Ryan Evans: Extremely high.

Michael Kofman: Extremely high. They're doing well. They have a host of challenges as any military does in the field. They are winning slowly. But they are winning. They're making progress. That's the impression. The fight is a hard one. I think sometimes it looks way too easy the way it's discussed on social media and it really isn't. Certainly not if you're there seeing it. And you know, you get the general impression that Ukrainians are very committed, they believe in what they're doing, spirits overall are high and they understand that this may very well, it's not a short war. They understand that this may be a long war. And they're committed to it.

Ryan Evans: Yes. And we of course got asked a lot of questions, especially Mike and I, about American politics. Probably the question I got asked the most, actually, definitely the question I got asked the most, was should the Ukrainians worry about the midterms, especially if Republicans do well. And there is this keen sense, I got no impression from the Ukrainians that they believe they are owed support. They very much understand that they need to earn, they've earned, they're earning the support and they're very grateful for it. And a lot of gratitude expressed, not that I'm doing anything, I just run a website, but a lot of gratitude expressed to America towards doing this, but a lot of anxiety about whether and how it will continue.

Michael Kofman: Yeah, I'll definitely say that I got a lot of these questions. I think that it's clear from the Ukrainian side that without Western support and especially American support, the war has a very different trajectory potentially after May, June.

Ryan Evans: Of this year, yeah.

Michael Kofman: Of this year. And many Ukrainians appreciate that their success in so many respects hinges on sustainability of external military support. And so they have these questions. And it was almost, to be perfectly honest, disappointing because as a person who lives in DC, I'm probably the last one who's politically knowledgeable enough to answer them what happens after these elections. But you can sense the trepidation and concern. One of the biggest questions on Ukrainian minds is, to what extent they can count on sustainability of American support, given likely changes in American politics and what the implications are for them. They don't know what they are, they're just concerned. They're knowledgeable enough to be concerned about what it might be.

Konrad Muzyka: I think from my point of view, speaking as a Pole and as a European, I think Ukrainians can rely on the Polish support. Definitely. Poland is willing and probably capable in the short to medium term to provide Ukraine with as much capability as it has. But a lot will actually depend on the Polish modernization programs and the Polish ability to replace Soviet legacy systems with brand new Abrams or K2 tanks from South Korea.

Ryan Evans: Yeah. Tanks came up. And it was interesting getting more... Because Ukrainians from different factions and movements and groups arrive in Washington and saying with their own lists of equipment that they want. And so sometimes it's a little dizzying and often contradictory. But what we did hear from some well-placed people, that Ukraine wants tanks. And it was interesting hearing the rationale. Of course we can understand why tanks could be useful, but Mike, Konrad, don't they have very large stores of tanks, Soviet-era tanks, of their own?

Michael Kofman: So my impression is, yes they do and they've captured quite few Russian tanks as well. They're very compatible with the tanks and parts that they have. That said, I think that Ukraine long term faces two big challenges. The first one is a dwindling amount of Soviet-type munitions, Soviet caliber munitions. Across the board. We knew very well about artillery in the spring. But it actually, I think, affects over time all parts of equipment. And the second one is transitioning to systems that Western countries can actually help supply, maintain, provide parts for. And so there's two interrelated problems. One is a basic problem. Large-scale conventional war consumes your ammunition like nothing else. And a second problem of sustainability.

Konrad Muzyka: Well, I am going to say something that is very basic. It's actually extremely basic. It is a very high intensity war. Very high. And the amounts of ammunition that are needed to support Ukrainian efforts are massive. It is clear to me that Europe is not prepared to support Ukrainian efforts at this stage.

Ryan Evans: In terms of volume of munitions...

Konrad Muzyka: In terms of volume of ammunition that needs to be supplied. So there's definitely some food for thought for Europeans to actually think about what sort of ammunition stockpiles they actually need to have prepared for any sort of contingency that will be needed in the future should Russia re-emerge from this conflict in whatever form.

Ryan Evans: I agree. But back to the tank point, as it really does come back to those munitions, is they need more. They have the tanks, the Soviet and Russian tanks, but they don't have the munitions and the only way they can get the munitions are from the West, which means they need to use Western tanks. And what they really want is the Leopard and the Germany is of course a sticking point on that.

Konrad Muzyka: Yeah. And I mean the very same thing happened with artillery, where Ukrainians are running out or have already run out of Soviet projectiles. And now they mostly rely on equipment and shells provided by the Western Europe.

Michael Kofman: For me, I'll just be frank, it was great coming back. I haven't been back to Ukraine in several years, not before Covid, to be perfectly honest. So it's been a couple years for me. This trip was not a glad-handing trip in Kyiv. This was a trip where we went with a convoy all the way from Kyiv down south.

Ryan Evans: Over 800 miles. Total.

Michael Kofman: Yeah, this trip was a very extended trip. I can't remember the last time I spent this much time in vehicles of various kinds. We were far south. I think, let's put it this way, our Ukrainian colleagues made clear to us that we are probably the first foreigners that were in the newly liberated territory since the Kherson offensive, over the last several weeks. And it certainly looked and felt that way. So it was an interesting experience. We had really good conversations with field units and junior commanders. We had really good conversations with generals and commanders of different units. We had the opportunity to engage a few senior leaders and a mix of folks who were involved.

To me, actually, one of the most fascinating things were those people who were plugged in making the horizontal connections. They were in different fights. They were linking kind of the infrastructure together. And for Konrad and me, these are people who we knew. These are people we'd known for some months in interactions, let's say, in various discussions and efforts, but had never met. And they sort of materialized in corporeal form for us as individuals. And we sort of realized that, hey, we've been talking to these people in one format or another over the past several months.

Ryan Evans: Over encrypted messaging apps. But then you got to meet with them and drink with them in person.

Michael Kofman: Yes. They were anonymous folks in encrypted messaging apps, but they became very real on this trip, let's say somewhere between Odessa and Kherson.

Ryan Evans: Yeah. Well Ukraine is certainly full of colorful characters. I've learned that. This was my first time to Ukraine.

Konrad Muzyka: Well, I may add that I very much hope that it was the first trip that we took, that actually materialized, which was very eventful and which provided us with a lot of food for thought. And I very much hope that it's not the last one.

Michael Kofman: I just want to thanks to both of you and another colleague that came with me on this. In some respects I will say I think it's great we did this. I'm almost remiss that we hadn't done it sooner, but I'm mostly appreciative that we did this at a particularly difficult time for Ukraine. I felt Ukrainians were too. These last two weeks were particularly challenging for Ukrainians, given all the strikes and missile attacks and whatnot. And so I think it was almost more important for them to see that people were still willing to come, they were still willing to visit, and to show up. And not just show up in Kyiv but show up in actually other parts of Ukraine.

Ryan Evans: I also would like to make a little tribute. We're actually all drinking a little Jamieson on the train here. It's an overnight train. A cheers to the Ukrainian gas station. Ukrainian gas stations are actually quite delightful. They have these great hotdogs. You can buy all sorts of things in them. And they’d better be delightful because Ukrainians take more rest stops on road trips. These weren't road trips. These were, I guess in military parlance you'd call them ground movements, which they were. It is a war zone. But boy did we take a lot of gas station smoke breaks when we didn't need gas.

Michael Kofman: Yeah, I'll just add, Ryan discovered that there is a cultural difference in place. And that is that, unlike Americans who take a break or two and they get to a destination, Ukrainians…

Ryan Evans: Probably the height of American masculinity is saying, I'm not saying this is a good thing, I don't think it is, is saying how long the road trip you took was where you didn't make one stop.

Michael Kofman: Yeah, that's not the case in Ukraine. As Ryan discovered, Ukrainian's like taking several breaks, catching up, chatting with folks, having a cigarette. And then one thing Ukrainians like to do is before you get to the destination, 20 minutes beforehand…

Ryan Evans: 20 minutes away.

Michael Kofman: They take a 20 minute break. As I discovered, it drives Americans crazy. It drives them crazy to take an extended break right before you get to the place you are going to, instead of just pushing through and getting there. Anyway, it was interesting. We got to travel in several different kinds of convoys with different types of folks, different kinds of fighters from different troops. And I'm very thankful for it. I'm also thankful to be on the train, heading back home.

Ryan Evans: Yeah. And it was just great. A special thanks to those who kept us safe, alive, and entertained along the way.

Konrad Muzyka: Just to add, it is clear that Ukrainian spirits remain strong. They are extremely motivated. They are quite certain that the tables have turned and that maybe the end of the war is not necessarily near, but they're quite capable of winning this war in the medium to long term.

Ryan Evans: They can feel it coming over the horizon.